Napoleonic, WSS & ECW wargaming, with a load of old Hooptedoodle on this & that


Thursday 27 October 2022

WSS: Battle of Wartenried - Twilight of the Sun King Playtest

 Yesterday (evening for me, late morning for him) Jon Freitag was kind enough to join me by Zoom, to give the Twilight of the Sun King [ToSK] rules a hefty workout. One of the strengths of the rule set is its ability to handle large combats, so I set up an action involving all my Brits (that was Jon), defending a ridge position against all my French (that was me).

 
Schomberg's Horse - award-winning performance

I had tweaked the rules a little to give a battalion-level game, and had taken some trouble to simplify the amount of reading required by removing all reference to pikes, squares, light horse, Turks, GåPå and so on which are not relevant to my bit of the Wars.

I'll give a brief summary of our findings on the rules later. Here are some photos of the action. The French produced an elephantine attack in deep series of lines, with cavalry covering the flanks, and were well beaten. The attack on the right was far more badly disordered by the shallow river than I had expected, and never reached the ridge itself, suffering badly from the British guns. Much of the action in the centre was dominated by cavalry - the outstanding "special mention" has to be Schomberg's Horse, who eliminated 3 French cavalry units, one battery and two battalions in a remarkable tour of the field. They will appear here and there in what follows (well done, chaps... swine!).

Some of the main areas of combat were sadly bogged down by the slow rate of resolution of melee action - a lot of instances of units passing morale tests in unlikely situations, and the procedure of one lot of testing for each side every turn is mostly pretty turgid. Eventually a French surrender was necessary - we made very heavy going of the assault, and were slowed by the minutiae of manoeuvre, which I'm sure had a lot to do with my own incompetence. I did learn that getting your cavalry caught in column is not a good idea!








 

 
Ah - French cavalry in column, with no room for manoeuvre, are shown the error of their ways

 
...just hold your fire for a minute, will you, lads?...



 
This was the big French cavalry advance in column - like snowballs in Hell

 
Some of the cavalry vs foot melees ground on for ages...

 
French right attack disrupted by crossing streams and enemy artillery fire
 

 
Gendarmérie de France fail to sweep unsupported infantry (Hamilton's Irish) off the hill



 
Schomberg's boys get another photo opportunity - lest we forget

 
The Régiment de Navarre receives vague news that somewhere in front their army has been thumped

I was really very excited by these rules, so was looking forward to giving them a good workout. Like the old Huzzah! Napoleonic rules, they shift the generals' focus away from nonsense like loading and firing, and they must concern themselves with how the units are getting on. The commander's job is to get his army to where he wants it, and the assumption is that fighting will take place by itself. All combat is abstracted to a core series of morale tests, failing which can produce results ranging from loss of strength (unit morale) to "rout", which is break up and elimination of a unit. The manoeuvring involves "Action Tests" for complicated moves such as wheels or changes of formation, which depend on a very simple dice roll.

Jon and I had an entertaining few hours, let it be said, but we were left with some unease about how the rules worked. Some of the individual combat results were just plain silly, and the re-roll system tends to accentuate this [maybe the original 2-average-dice set-up would produce less extremes than the new 2D6 system?]. The morale tests are heavy going, though you do speed up as you get used to them, but a lot of the time not much happens, the rules are often unclear, and melees tended to drag on beyond what seemed reasonable. Manoeuvre is probably the most irritating bit - the rules to handle manoeuvre are quite detailed and really rather fiddly - on a non-gridded field there are lots of special situations which don't seem to be covered.

I was intrigued by what we learned, and there are some good bits in there, but overall the game is not something that either of us would rush to repeat. Each to his own taste, of course, but I found it heavy going, and the morale tests produced some questionable results and generally took a lot of time and effort.

Sorry, but I have bought the rules (including the scenario books which give updates), and spent some time studying them and following the Q&A on the Facebook page. I don't wish to be unfair to anyone, the booklet is a pleasant read and gives a refreshing view on gaming, but I am also left with the impression that the latest version of the game, as played by regulars, has evolved to something rather different from the booklet you buy from the Pike & Shot Society. No doubt someone will take me severely to task here, but that is my take on it. The Brigade Level game with 10mm troops might be a different exercise altogether, but the rules as we played them, interesting though the ideas are, do not tick the boxes I am looking for!

My sincere thanks to Jon, for his enthusiasm and excellent company; whatever the delivery on the rules themselves, it was a fun session, and also very educational! Mission accomplished, and we have agreed that we should meet again in the virtual world of Zoom Wars, and soon!
 

32 comments:

  1. Good to see your splendid troops on display, even if the rules were a bit unsatisfactory. Congratulations to Jon and commiserations to the French!

    Cheers,

    David.

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    1. Hi David - I'm sure there are lots of disciples who just love the rules, but for me there was too much hard work - probably a criticism of me as much as anything else! I hope you observed some very familiar flags, doing sterling service!

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    2. It is supposed to be fun, after all! A lot of us like fairly simple satisfying rules these days, even if we liked rules like the infamous Bruce Quarrie Napoleonics as teenagers... And yes, I did indeed see the flags and they looked pretty good to me, nicely matching the figures. :-)

      Cheers,

      David.

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  2. Tony, thank you again for hosting the game! The session was great fun, conducted in good company. Very pleasing to see your armies up close in these photos. Inspiring stuff especially seeing the Heroic Schomberg Horse in their Glory Ride. Schomberg's run was quite the wargaming adventure. They will have many honors, banners, and trophies of war to hang back at Regimental HQ.

    My only comment on the rules is that I was not troubled much by the intricacies of maneuver. After all, the British army barely budged!

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    1. Thanks again Jon - I'm still chuckling at our collective disbelief at some of the combat outcomes! War was ever thus, of course.

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  3. Used the rules with 2mm troops and became irritated by all of the things you mentioned. Sold them (and the 2mm bods) after only two games. Interesting concepts but disappointing when played. I kept hankering after hexes too!

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    1. Silly me, I actually used Twilight of the Divine Right - but the comments and issues with the rules remain the same!

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    2. Bonsoir JBM - I guess I've turned into a fussy old beggar, but it's taken me many years of painstaking study to achieve this state of grace.

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  4. Interesting contrast with the SYW version here:

    https://horseandmusketgaming.blogspot.com/search/label/Twilight%20of%20the%20Soldier%20Kings

    Is it because you were using battalions not brigades? Or just personal taste?

    I've only flicked through TWk at a show; seemed to be lots of plusses and minuses to dice throws.....
    Neil

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    1. The move to battalions and individual regiments of horse probably increases the mobility of units, the base game is pretty much the same, though the ranges increase.

      nundanket's enthusiasm and his helpful link to the tutorial stuff on YouTube were what got me to dust off the rules and have a more serious look at them. I have the 2016 edition, which I think is officially the latest, though there is a wealth of amendments in scenario books and on the discussion forum. A friend of mine, who is also an enthusiast, said that there is an analogy somewhere - the Bible, he says, is regarded as the Font of Truth, but scholars have been working for 2000 years to tell us what it means [no disrespect to anyone, of course].

      The adjustment tables for the Morale Tests are beefy - so much so that I re-wrote them to weed out stuff which didn't apply to my campaigns - this is quite nostalgic, since it is what I had to do with the WRG rules, back in another century.

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  5. Super looking game, your table and troops are a real joy, I love your aesthetics, something I aspire to. Good to see what you think of the rules as well.

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    1. Thank you Donnie - I do appreciate your feedback. Blogs are mosty about getting to share what makes us happy. Testing rules makes me quite happy, too!

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  6. Oh dear, sorry that didn't quite work out!
    I was interested by your comment that "the latest version of the game, as played by regulars, has evolved to something rather different from the booklet you buy from the Pike & Shot Society" - were you playing from the original booklet, or were you playing 'the latest version'? Sorry if I have misunderstood..
    The armies and the table look great, of course!

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    1. Hi David - it had to be done - if I hadn't tried them out I'd have wondered about it for years! I have the 2016 booklet. There are published amendments here and there, which adds to the confusion a little. The basic idea is beautiful, but the implementation is hard work, for me, and some of the explanations are a bit ambiguous. We had a strange episode last night when a cavalry unit broke from melee, and was pursued and attacked in the rear - they passed the resulting morale test - twice! Personally, I would also be happier if cavalry who failed to win a melee quickly actually fell back to recover. I have to say that the (new) Uncontrolled Pursuit rule (of which, admittedly, we used a simplified version) looks a bit like the product of a committee, and well away from the central spirit of simplicity and quick play which appealed to me in the first place.

      We had to agree what happens if units are forced off the edge of the table - I haven't found that in the booklet yet.

      The armies were quite happy (if confused at times), as were the generals!

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  7. A fantastic looking game filled with wonderful 18th century eye candy, you have done us proud.
    I bought the same rules last year and did a paper work exercise playing them, I like the concept but sadly found them overly complicated. So I wrote my own fast play rules.

    Willz.

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    1. Greetings Willz, and thanks. I think you have put your finger on it - as I get older, I get more impatient and less able to get enthusiastic about complexity in rules - especially when the rules are marketed as simple! I guess that the guys at the Wyre Valley know what to do because someone with a loud voice tells them what to do.

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  8. It looked lovely and your comments about the rules are very reassuring. Like The Jolly Broom Man my set is also 'Twilight of the Divine Right rather than TWIGLET' and I wondered whether I was the only one who found them hard to grasp. Apart from the long lists of modifiers I was always stumped by the abbreviations for the units which define the: Type, Size, Pike:Shot ratio and Quality... all a bit too much for me to keep up with.

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    1. I meant to ask, as these have also tempted me - has anyone tried the 'Napoleonic Command II' rules at http://warartisan.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Brief_Description.339100731.pdf

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    2. Hi Rob - the scenario books have even extended the range of add-ons - there are lists of units which might identify a unit as being small, pike-heavy, trained, determined...

      Good grief. If these are supposed to be (or have been, see Martin's comment below) quick-play rules then someone is building all the sludge back in. For my taste, for a historical game, if a brigade had say 2500 men and my battalions have a standard organisation of 600 men then that brigade will get 4 battalions, unless there is some campaign-continuity reason to do otherwise. The tendency to "dignify" the hobby by adding in fiddly details to the rules doesn't make it more noble or scientific, it just makes it slower and more like hard work. One of the things about wargame shows which bothers me (I rarely go these days) is the man-who-knows-the-rules role in demonstration games, whose job it is to tell everyone what to do and look things up when necessary. An interesting psychological profile, for people who wish to do this at an exhibition game?

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  9. Great looking game Tony. Seeing those masses of infantry puts me in mind of the Blenheim chapter in the War Game.
    Intrigued by Jon's and your experience of the rules. Maybe the drafting of the version you have leaves something to be desired. The Soldier Kings variant is not perfect, but once you have the basic procedures straight they are pretty clear. And perhaps the latest edition of Sun King has tidied some of that up. In Soldier Kings cavalry seem to either smash infantry or bounce off, but don't tend to stay in continued combat. Infantry v infantry can last several turns however unless a new factor comes into play.
    The other thing I'm wondering about is the battalion version of the Sun King. There is no option in Soldier Kings (it's just brigades). That shouldn't necessarily change the principles, but maybe something else, some level of 'buggerance' has crept in to the battalion version or not been edited out.
    Or it could all just come down to personal taste as Neil says.

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    1. I'm beginning to suspect that the game has evolved in a direction which may not have been what I was looking for, but the battalion scale game is a further extension of the regimental scale which is an option in the current booklet. It makes me nervous that there is no mention of changing weapon ranges for the alternative game, though the groundscale has doubled. Maybe they forget to mention it...

      Anyway, I may have made things worse, since a battalion level action allows units to move about independently, and the movement rules may not be up to that. I'm sure it is all down to personal taste, it may be down to shrinking brain capacity on my part! I enjoyed the test game, but it didn't do it for me - that's OK - I had to give it a try! The Facebook page is useful for the enthusiasts, but there is a stream of explanations of what the rules mean, which suggests a problem of assimilation for newbies? Certainly this newbie has given them a lot of thought, but struggled a bit!

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  10. I completely agree with your comments on the later versions of the rules, which seem to have evolved into a hideous variant of DBMM. I guess some people just like lots of fiddly modifiers and troop types. The original TSK booklet is far more playable (and more akin to DBA) , and it is easy enough to retrofit some the wider period troop types into it.

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    1. Thanks for this Martin. I must see if I can locate an earlier version of the game. Since I was reminded of it, I've even been tempted to dust off "Huzzah!", which is Napoleonic but uses some similar ideas - I was rather put off by the introduction, in which the author explains that any user who has problems may be handicapped by their use of incorrect military terminology, and their imperfect understanding of the period. I didn't wait for reference to "Period Flavour" before I shut the file and put it away. Let's face it, I am not worthy, and maybe happy at that!

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  11. Whatever the outcome the toys look marvelllous!

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    1. Thank you Matt - the costume department will remain unaltered - I'm only going to sack the script writer! Hope things good with you.

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  12. Tony, I think it IS an age thing! I completely agree with almost everything negative that has been said about the rules, and I don't even know them! WRG I looked at in the 70's as a teenager and didn't like - from what others who used them at that time have told me, they sound like an exercise in advanced mental arithmetic - and if you chose the right force and could memorise the tables, you would normally win the games - THAT is definitely not what I ever sought from wargaming! The idea that adding complexity makes things "more realistic" is tosh - it's a game with toy soldiers, nothing about it is realistic! As for your description of the intro to "Huzzah", it sounds like pretentious crap and would have irritated me before I even got to the rules too! KISS is a great concept in most walks of life, including wargame rules! I am sure you can find (or write) something that will provide what you are looking for from your games.

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    1. Thanks Keith - that is such a great comment (I always love the ones I agree with most!) that it needs framing and hanging on a wall somewhere near my wargames table. I guess the WRG rules may have been a step forward at the time, in some way, but for me they mostly replaced Charlie Wesencraft's "Practical" rules, which was maybe not a positive change. My favourite chuckling memories of WRG are Phil Barker telling us what shaped hills we were allowed to have, and the experience - especially for the Ancients - of grinding through the same old "factors" tables a myriad times, each time making a tired joke about how there STILL weren't any Sumerians, or camels, or jezrails on the table. Did anyone use those rules and not write out their own cut-down version, just to protect their sanity? When I think about it, I must have been a grumpy young beggar once, as well, but schlepping through a list of 40-odd factors, most of which weren't relevant, dozens of times each turn of every game, was more of a clerical job than a pastime. Makes me wonder whether some rule-writers, from WRG to "Huzzah!" and beyond, were handicapped by their inability to resist showing off their encyclopaedic knowledge at every possible opportunity. [Form your own list!]

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  13. Well, it was a beautiful looking game, whatever. It certainly looks the part for WSS. Shame that you found the rules a disappointment but I'm fast coming round to the point of view that the only way to get a set of rules that does what you want is to write your own - and don't be afraid to tinker with them mid-game if silly stuff happens.

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    1. Hi Chris - I think that's a sound approach - the possibility that someone might have a ready-made game that did the right things was worth checking out, I think. I shall return with more positivity to my own rules! ["positivity" must score at least 2 faults in the Pretentiousness Show-jumping ratings - this is a topic of interest to me again, since last night a lady on Radio 3 used "luminosity" in a music description, which is an instant disqualification. This digression has been brought to you by MSFoy, our sponsor...]

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    2. Aye, absolutely. I don't think I've ever bought a set of rules I didn't end up tinkering with, but then I don't think there's a set that didn't have some good ideas I could pinch. Of course, it means you have to find like-minded people to play with. Some players get aggravated when you start changing rules in the middle of a game. Odd that.
      Luminosity, eh? Excellent quality for radio.

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  14. Firstly and most importantly, what a magnificent looking table and game. The figures are a delight to view!
    I have used the rules twice and they are very much 'in play' for me. That said, I can understand completely that they are not for you. The level of abstraction was too much for me mate Julian when he joined me in my second game. I agree entirely that the 'regimental scale' game smacks of an add-on, so scaling to battalion level would be two or more bridges too far. For me, the course for this horse will be brigade-scale games (other rules are 'in play' for smaller scales). My experience with Twilight of the Sun King is like Chris (Nundaket)'s with Twilight of the Soldier King. The morale tests are easy to conduct, with only a few modifiers (I used pike-armed, determined, wavering and the like). This hobby of ours is rich and broad, so that we can enjoy it similarly and differently at the same time. I differ from Keith as I want the hobby to assist and enhance my 'study' of history. These ticked that box for me. The charge of my Swedes at Fraustadt failed to cause much disquiet to the Saxo-Russian defenders, so a protracted to-ing and fro-ing combat ensued and I was beaten by my Saxo-Russians. At Klissow the infantry charge was more successful (and better assisted by the flanking cavalry), so the Swedes prevailed. Luck, timing and most of all a plan poorly or better conceived and executed all helped.
    I reckon that your own Prinz Eugen rules are far better suited to your course—and a well written set they are too!
    Regards, James

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    1. Thanks for enjoying the scenery! My disappointment over the ToSK experiment is undoubtedly down to my own implementation and, as you say, my personal taste. I spent cash, time and thought on the game, and I like the abstraction of combat as an idea - I have liked this for years. I can see that brigades are less volatile, and that is an appropriate scale to play a manageable game. I was most disappointed by the lack of precision in the wording, and in the fact that it takes some time on Facebook and elsewhere to find out how the practitioners interpret what the rules actually say, and how they seem to be continuing to evolve.

      My own background in wargaming has been lengthy and interrupted by one major sabbatical period, when Real Life won out for 12 years or so, and my soldiers went into storage. I have become stuck with the idea that boardgames have the best rules, by and large, but the miniatures game is far and away the most satisfying visually. There is a big gap somewhere in the middle, and you will usually find me grubbing around somewhere in there.

      The Prinz Eugen game is pretty stable now - there is more industry in the activation procedures than I consider ideal, and the (combined) combat system is dice-heavy (pure self-indulgence!) and certainly unsuitable for remote play. I just need more social opportunities to play the bloody thing!

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