I was delighted this morning to receive an email from Jean-Marc, a friend of mine in France - always good value.
He sent me this photo, taken in a farmhouse in France, as part of a running thread we have on Le Kriegspiel, a very early grid-based miniatures game which still has a following over there.
"After some years of research I have finally found one of the French group still playing the venerable Le Kriegspiel French rules with 20mm flats, (first version of the rules written out in 1935, which pioneered the use of hexes, last version 1964, translated by Pat Condray in 1965).
Attached is a pic of a Kriegspiel terrain used in Northern France. Terrain is 6m x 4.5m. No problem reaching the centre of the board, as every wooden tile is removable on all the edges of the terrain. It’s a very heavy terrain btw. As the owner says, «I’m not very good with terrain, this one I have used for 4 decades is very practical». (I have been told that there is a superb terrain in Corsica)."
My thanks to Jean-Marc. Interesting stuff.
***** Late Edit *****
Jean-Marc came back with some more information, which is certainly worth a look.
Some links on Le Kriegspiel may be found here and here, and the Pat Condray translation (published on Clive's Vintage Wargaming blog) here.
Jean-Marc explains that the system was originally used for TYW, WSS and Napoleonics, and, later, there were variants for ACW, Franco-Prussian and probably SYW.
He also sent some photos of the 20mm flats.
Once again, thanks very much, Jean-Marc!
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***** Late Late Edit *****
Jean-Marc very kindly sent some more details about French flats.
"Reading quickly the comments, my own on flats:
30 mm
flats were the most common (for kids, first, collectors next), and still
are. (Of course, there are larger figures than 30mm, but not for games).
20mm flats figures were used first for dioramas and next for games, and were invented in the 40's/50's in limited numbers. French wargamers took the opportunity to produce them in the mid 60's, they had the customers, the drawers/designers, the engravers etc. And of course a very precise knowledge of uniforms, being linked to the La Sabretache group.
The French production of 20mm specialised in 1805-1809 for Napoleonics, and expanded from there. They did not find [it] useful to copy what already existed in Germany, for example Napoleonics 1812-1815. In fact, they added the figures that could not be found elsewhere.
Amicalement,
Jean-Marc
P.S. If you are wondering why Brigadier Peter Young had the Arquebusiers de Grassins well painted in his rule book, it is because he was a member of La Sabretache before WWII. He visited his friends of La Sabretache in Paris in 1944, on one of his first trips there."
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I read somewhere that the beauty of flats is that they paint up extremely well. Seeing these examples, I can well believe it!
ReplyDeleteLovely, eh? Flats also have the advantage that the enemy can't see them coming from the front.
DeleteIntersting stuff and the flat figures are beautifully painted. I had never heard of 20mm flats before...usually, they are quite a bit larger, 40mm or so?
ReplyDeleteHi Keith - I don't know much about flats, but I'm always very impressed by what I've seen. Some years ago, in the Bavarian Army Museum in Ingolstadt, I saw the huge battle dioramas they have there (18th Century stuff), and was fascinated to see that they used different sizes of flats, including some real tiddlers at the back to enhance the sense of perspective. I was also struck by the fact that you forget the figures are flat in about 2 minutes!
DeleteThat’s a lovely looking set up Tony…
ReplyDeleteI have a few 30mm flats, they are beautiful things…I also picked up a couple of reproduction catalogues just for all the lovely illustrations.
Am I tempted…. Of course I am 😁.
All the best. Aly
It does look good, doesn't it? I am very worried about the helath & safety implications of lifting out a table section - shades of the Siege of Dendemonde, where there were hatches in the battlefield for the players to pop up and arrange things.
DeleteFlats are marvellous things - they also have a strangely exotic air of ancient mystery. Apparently the French chap uses three-dimensional guns, which is a lot more satisfactory than using flat ones.
Very nice Tony. Don’t suppose the fella lives anywhere near the Limousin region?
ReplyDeleteJean-Marc tells me that the gentleman in question now lives in Brittany. He may have contacts in Limousin, I'll ask.
DeleteThanks matey. It would be nice to link up with a few folks over there.
ReplyDeletec'est magnifique - et c'est vraiment la guerre !
ReplyDeleteExactement - bien dit!
DeleteInteresting post and the flats are gorgeous!! Always fancied getting some but my dabbing wouldn't do them justice I'm afraid!!
ReplyDeleteHi Donnie - flats always intrigued me as little works of art - many of the painting techniques used nowadays - including the use of highlights and shading to add "depth" to a fully 3-dimensional miniature, which always puzzled me a bit - make a lot of sense in the flat world, and I guess that's probably where they came from. Like you, I'd be hesitant to try my hand!
DeleteWow! This is fascinating. That pic with the hex grid makes it look very granular. Intriguing.
ReplyDeleteI remember reading the article of the wargames club during the Occupation a few years ago. Can't remember where I saw the link originally. But the revelation about Peter Young's involvement just closes the circle beautifully.
Only one word is appropriate. Superbe!
It would be inappropriate to imply any criticism of Pat Conday's translation of the rules, but I find them very difficult to follow - a lot of things don't quite make sense - maybe Pat was working from some rough notes. I may have a private attempt to edit it a bit for my own use. On the other hand, I'm unlikely to use them in their original form, but at least I'll be able to understand what it is I'm not using! I've had two attempts to follow through the worked example at the end - that's a three-coffee job, I think, but there are references to the commanders omitting to make certain "claims" under the rules which look interesting, so I'll have another shot at this.
DeleteIt is fairly mind-blowing - especially the early date; I'm prepared to bet that this would have been pretty much a closed shop (certainly Le Sabretache was - no sweaty hordes involved there, thank you), which is maybe why knowledge of the history of the French game is so scarce. Jean-Marc's personal enthusiasm is an invaluable example of how much our hobby owes to the spontaneous efforts of individuals.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention Tony. Those flats are glorious.
ReplyDeleteHaving recently 'discovered' and read the 1824 Kriegsspiel, and finding loads that I like, I will read the Pat Condray translation of the latter French adaptation with interest.
Regards, James
Thanks James - all the best with reading the translation - if you get to the end of the first few paragraphs and understand how the game turns work then you are doing well. I'm going to see if I can get a French version and start again.
DeleteTo avoid confusion, and any unintended offence to the ghosts of Le Sabretache, it is probably worth re-stating that this French game is neither a translation nor a relative of the original Prussian Kriegsspiel - it just happens to have a similar name - the game itself is very different, and its origins are quite separate. Maybe the boys at Le Sabretache thought toy warfare was a German sort of thing?
ReplyDeleteDunno Tony, I can see heaps of the influence of Kriegsspiel 1824 (the categories of terrain, use of U as the basis of movement, the organisation of troops to units, effects of firing and combat). Even the order of game sequence lends itself to Kriegsspiel. Clearly this has more refinement and specification. Of course, they *all* trace their heritage back to that in the end don't they? Except, of course for Reinhard Graf zu Solms "Kartenspiel"!
DeleteGosh, they are like Zimmermann. Presumably he derived a lot of his ideas from these...
DeleteHi James - when I was younger and less tired, I spent some time sifting through the combat tables and so on from the Reisswitz game and trying to edit them into something which fitted my ideas (circa 1975) of a miniatures game. Mostly I recall being shocked at how "bloody" the kill rates were. Compared to what, I wonder?
DeleteWhere did you get your hands on Zimmermann, by the way?
I intend to tread that well-trod path!
DeleteI picked it up from the interweb (eBay, I believe). Not cheap, but a really good quality copy and worth it as we've used them a lot and they have some wonderful aspects (and wit)!
Excellent piece, thankyou for publishing. The French always had to be different 😃 The flats are superb and I must get back to doing my 30mm SYW. I have found that with acrylics, inks etc a really nice result can be achieved and they always look so nice on the table
ReplyDelete