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| Apologies for the photographs - no flash because the book is printed on shiny paper, and the binding is such that I will surely wreck the poor thing if I try to force it flat on the scanner |
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| Provincial Grenadiers at Medellin - fine big, furry hats with flammes; that'll do for me |
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| More of them, this time in 1802 with the earlier blue uniform - again, normal grenadier headwear |
While I was looking over the boxes of collected grenadier castings which will form my elite battalions, I noted that I had carefully included a very fine standard bearer figure in each battalion. The reasons, of course, are [1] all my battalions have a standard bearer and [2] Falcata included one in the boxed sets. However, now I come to think of it, what flag would such a fellow carry? The provincial grenadiers were formed into permanent battalions, so some sort of flag might be expected there, but the line and the guard grenadier units were "converged" (ooh - I have a vision of them being forced through some kind of blending machine) from the grenadier companies of battalions in the brigade, so they would not be expected to take any regimental colours away from their parent units, despite pictures to the contrary on the Front Rank site and elsewhere. Unless the grenadiers got a flag of their own to play with, I don't think the standard bearer would have anything to do, and these converged units did not have any permanent status such as might justify a flag.
OK - decree No.2 for today is that my provincial grenadier battalions will have a standard (of some sort) but the converged line grenadiers will not.
There you are.
Two decrees in one day.
Sounds like a plan. Sometimes we have to make arbitrary decisions based on limited evidence, common sense, gut feeling and a a desire to gratify one's self. My wife and I made an offer on a house today after seeing eight others. I'm not sure which of the four categories listed above we drew on the most.
ReplyDeleteHurrah!!
ReplyDeleteThe celebrations are widespread amongst my Spanish Army, especially for the regt of provincial grenadiers who go so far as to throw their (normal) bearskin caps in the air.
Seriously, thank you for all the hard work and expense you have gone to. It has moved my knowledge along significantly. I intend to return to my own Spanish Army after the summer possibly for a little change of organisation, I may well be bothering you to pick your brains again then.
All that remains now is to await the painted results.
John
The Grenadiers of the line were officially the first half of each first battalion. AFAIK each company had its own colours, this being a hang over from the previous century, much the same as British and Prussian Regiments had, though they only took two on parade or campaign. Each brigade paired up the grenadiers into battalions and the second half of the 1st battalions into another battalion. Two brigades formed a division along with one of the huge Light Regiments. The light regiment never served together but with split up with a third of each allocated to the three brigades. So you end up with a Line Division formally of two Brigade of 5 Musketeer battalions and a third of the Light regiment and a Grenadier brigade of two converged Grenadier battalions and a third of the Light Regiment. The light regiment was used to supplement the Spanish battalions integral skirmishers to give them an effective skirmisher capability.
ReplyDeleteFrom 1768, according to regs, the two battalions of each line regiment each carried a single colour - coronela for the 1st and sencilla or ordenanza for the 2nd. Unofficial hangovers from the previous century are news to me - interesting - what are your sources for this? My army is based on the OOB at Ucles (the Vanguard, 1st and Reserve Divisions).
DeleteHow do you get 5 musketeer battalions in the brigade? 2 battalions of converged grenadiers requires 4 regiments so you have 4 2nd battalions and 4 half 1st battalions of musketeers which makes 6 battalions of musketeers...
DeleteHave I missed something?
Rob - I don't know where the 5 comes from either. My understanding (which is bound to be flawed, I would expect) is that, according to Godoy's changed organisation of 1802, line regiments were to have 3 battalions - the 1st had 2 companies each of grenadiers and fusiliers, while the 2nd and 3rd had 4 of fusiliers, the 3rd Bn being retained as a depot. A normal brigade would be of 2 line regiments, with the two 1/2-battalions of grenadiers combined into an elite battalion, and, if they also wished to combine the remainder of the two 1st battalions (i.e. with the grenadiers detached) then that would give them a brigade of 3 fusilier bns and 1 of grenadiers, maybe with part of a light bn added. If you read Spanish OOBs of the 1808-09 period, they make special mention of the Granaderos Provinciales (which were distinct units) and the occasional Granaderos del General (and similar), which may have been ad-hoc converged units assembled from the army as a reserve or to protect the HQ. Otherwise, no mention is normally made of line grenadiers, which suggests that whatever they did with them was just standard practice and not worth noting. If they'd had special add-on brigades with a staff and so on, I'm pretty sure that someone's vanity would have ensured they were listed separately - my point is that this appears to be pretty rare. My reading of Ucles and Oñoro is that the armies were divided on the field into "wings" and other formations which seem to have had little to do with the official organisation - maybe they were formed up as they arrived, or maybe there was some political favour at work - they had an awful lot of very senior officers present with the regiments, so there must have been a lot of bickering about who ran the actual brigades!
DeleteAfter further thought, I guess either that the 5 is a typo or else it includes the depot (3rd) battalions, which wouldn't have been present (if they existed!).
DeleteRegarding the Provincial Grenadiers they would have carried flags, one Kings and One regimental flag but the exact design is a mystery. I just used generic ones from the line regiments off Warflag.
ReplyDeleteWhy would a single battalion have carried two flags? I don't follow this. There may have been extra colours of non-reguation form - there are Bueno illustrations of standard bearers (which I am sure you know well) of Oviedo Mil Prov and a couple of similar units carrying (e.g) a blue flag with a vertical cross plus a provincial motto of some sort. I'll dig these out and put on a future post.
DeleteRegards - Tony
PS would you give me the full details of where you got the book off line so I can order a copy for myself Drew
ReplyDeleteHave a look at
Deletehttp://www.euromodelismo.com/shop1/es/libros-castellano/295-los-regimientos-provinciales.html